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   caroline norma

   lecturer, RMIT University (logged in via email @rmit.edu.au)

   Professor Jeffreys's understanding of this issue is supported in Japanese case law history. In 1970 the Tokyo High Court ruled against a doctor who performed 'sex reassignment surgery' on men for controvening the Eugenic Protection Act. Precisely because the surgery rendered the men infertile. The ideas and practices of eugenics were rampant in pre-war Japanese society (causing devastation during wartime), and the law was introduced after the war to combat them. I think Jeffreys's article clearly shows that the ideas and practices of eugenics haven't yet been consigned to the dustbin of history, and are reemerging because social scientists continue to be dazzled by the rhetoric of transgender advocates.

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      Rebecca Leighto

      law student (logged in via email @gmail.com)

      It might be supported by an archaic Japanese court ruling, but it sure as hell isn't supported by modern jurisprudence either in Australia or elsewhere. Jeffreys' fringe views have been consistently rejected every time trans-related cases have come up that I can think of in the last decade outside of the most hardcore conservative states around.

      Most professed feminists might give pause to reconsider their views when their main support comes from the woman-hating extreme Christian right, but apparently not Sheila Jeffreys. But then again, you just suggested that the state seize control over trans womens' bodies so that they may be forced to continue to be able to breed. And this apparently doesn't strike you as problematic at all.

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   Feisty Amazon

   Energy Worker (logged in via email @hotmail.com)

   This is so terrifying to me, and I first was made aware of this by watching Chaz Bono's documentary on transition to FTM. I was so disgusted by the scene where Chaz is sitting in a hottub with a nerdy looking boyish girl(biologically female) 'boy bonding', and talking about being dudez....and just about what you said above about the hormone blockers introduced at age 10, then expectations of opposite sex hormones at age 16.....I was just like that boyish girl, refuting most female gender roles and…

   show full comment

   This is so terrifying to me, and I first was made aware of this by watching Chaz Bono's documentary on transition to FTM. I was so disgusted by the scene where Chaz is sitting in a hottub with a nerdy looking boyish girl(biologically female) 'boy bonding', and talking about being dudez....and just about what you said above about the hormone blockers introduced at age 10, then expectations of opposite sex hormones at age 16.....I was just like that boyish girl, refuting most female gender roles and characteristics and identifying with boys and playing with them because I thought girls' roles were stupid, and the limitations put on girls, the stupid dresses, and the fun boys got to have, while as a girl I was expected to cook and clean up after dinner when my brother didn't have to. I had extensive arguements with my parents about not being a girl, but it had NOTHING TO DO WITH wanting to wear male genitalia...It had EVERYTHING TO DO WITH being treated equally and not having to wear demeaning clothes or having to do boring female chores, play with dolls, and be limited from not wearing a shirt, and playing in the more fun boys' activities, biking, running, playing, baseball, hockey, ect.....

   So glad I came out as a Dyke when I did.....
   -Feisty Amazon

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      Rebecca Leighto

      law student (logged in via email @gmail.com)

      Except that none of this has anything to do with being trans.

      No one - not least therapists who oversee the transition process - is ever going to encourage you to transition. The entire point of having therapists oversee that process is to ensure that those who might consider transitioning for reasons other than, in the case of someone coercively assigned female at birth, actually being male, don't go through with it.

      So, you're a dyke - good for you. Don't generalise your experiences onto those of actual trans men.

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      Zoe Brain

      (logged in via Facebook)

      @Feisty Amazon - Note the first line of the diagnostic criteria for GID in the DSM-IV-TR.

      "A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex)."

      I emphasise : "NOT merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex". It's the first dealbreaker.

      In other words, NOT like your situation. You completely misunderstand - though that's not surprising unless you've researched the issue. Also, it has to be said, there's a lot of incompetent psychs out there who are supposed to know this, but don't. The mandated peer-review by a specialist before medical intervention is authorised weeds out such cases though.

      You couldn't have gotten either hormones or surgery even if you'd requested it. You wouldn't have been allowed to.

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   Melissa Raven

   (Adjunct lecturer at Flinders University)

   Sheila
   I share much of your concern, both about irrevocably changing the lives of children who cannot really understand the ramifications, and about the broader implications of this practice. But what would be more appropriate responses to 'Alex' and 'Jamie' and their families?
   Melissa

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   Meagan Tyler

   (Lecturer in Sociology at Victoria University)

   There is some very interesting literature coming out of medicine, psychology and psychiatry now which seriously questions the diagnosis and associated treatments of trans, it is time the social sciences caught up.

   It amazes me how quickly, in this environment, people who critique the medical industry of transgender become labelled "transphobic" or "trans-haters". Suggesting someone is transphobic for criticising the current system is like suggesting someone is homophobic for critiquing the old electroshock treatments for homosexuality. Why must the "solution" be invasive (and often irreversible) medical treatments rather than greater social acceptance of behaviour that doesn't conform to rigid gender norms?

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      Sophie Ardiz

      Student (logged in via email @traumapony.org)

      Most trans people don't transition because of rigid gender norms. They transition due to feelings of extreme discomfort with their own bodies.

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   Cathy Brennan

   (logged in via Facebook)

   @Melissa Raven - see http://dyneslines.blogspot.com/2009/12/ordeal-of-ronald-gold.html for one response. Of course, Ron Gold was persecuted for saying this.

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   Kitty Barber

   disabled (logged in via email @verizon.net)

   Kim Pearson is a co-founder, with pornographer "Andrea" James of an organization claiming to be 'all about the children.' They are currently baying for money on the internet, so that they can 'help' more children. I think social services ought, to look into this group for possible charges of child abuse. How can a young boy or girl make an informed decision? I am so glad I was not your daughter--you probably would have decided that because I wanted to wear pants, not pink, that I was really something…

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   Kim Pearson is a co-founder, with pornographer "Andrea" James of an organization claiming to be 'all about the children.' They are currently baying for money on the internet, so that they can 'help' more children. I think social services ought, to look into this group for possible charges of child abuse. How can a young boy or girl make an informed decision? I am so glad I was not your daughter--you probably would have decided that because I wanted to wear pants, not pink, that I was really something you call 'transgender.' I turned out to be a healthy, happy, lesbian, and a feminist.
   Of course, we do know lots of things. Feminist theory is a little out of your league, perhaps, but you ought to at least try. You might have a more open mind, and see that this is nothing more or less than gender stereotype enforcement--and it is wrong. YOU are creating misunderstanding, and I think, for your own claim to fame. I feel so sorry for your child. YOUR thinking ends lives. Please, many people are getting wise to your horrible practices, and seeing transgenderism for what it is. Your time is almost up, thank heavens.

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   Liane Timmermann

   Manager (logged in via email @hotmail.com)

   Great piece written here by Sheila Jeffreys! It is terrifying and I really feel for kids in our days now when not conforming with gender roles in our society . The body’s from those kids being mutilated and they are being put live long on powerful/harmful drugs . Instead of changing peoples / kids body’s to me it makes more sense in changing society.

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      Rebecca Leighto

      law student (logged in via email @gmail.com)

      Being trans has absolutely nothing with conforming (or otherwise) with gender roles. Trans people come in all shapes and sizes, and all the way from high femme through to stone butch.

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   Andrew Foers

   Student (logged in via email @msn.com)

   This seems to me to be absolutely ridiculous. Unless there is physiological evidence such as Klinefelter's syndrome or Androgen insensitivity syndrome, transforming children purely on a psychological basis seems to me to be completely unacceptable.
   I would argue that desires such as that to be the opposite sex are a result of exposure to ideas whether from their parents, TV or wherever.
   It absolutely astounds me that a court would allow a child to choose to wreck their body when they are judged not mature enough to drink alcohol.

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      Zoe Brain

      (Assistant Lecturer, Computer Science at Australian National University)

      "Unless there is physiological evidence ... transforming children purely on a psychological basis seems to me to be completely unacceptable. "

      You mean evidence like this -

      Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

      The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation…

      show full comment

      "Unless there is physiological evidence ... transforming children purely on a psychological basis seems to me to be completely unacceptable. "

      You mean evidence like this -

      Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

      The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

      or this:

      A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

      We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.

      or possibly this:

      White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. - Rametti et al, J Psychiatr Res. 2010 Jun 8.

      CONCLUSIONS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals.

      Though I could go on for quite a while. There's thousands of papers on the subject.

      There's another argument though for allowing this therapy, regardless of causation. Other therapies don't work - and the consequences are tragic. Here, rather than dry, dusty academic citations, is the human face of the issue. From the mermaids UK site:

      --
      "Cemeteries can be pretty bleak places, but when it is on the outskirts of a faceless Dutch suburb under a grey January sky, it feel about as about as desolate as you can possibly get. When you are visiting the grave of a child who killed herself in her early teens, the feeling of despair, especially when accompanied by her mother, gives way to an urge to weep bitterly. It is an urge which I am unable to resist as I do the maths subtracting the date of death from the day she was born. It is one thing to be told Juliaantje* was only 14, but to see it carved in marble was too much to bear. Holding her photograph her mother sobs uncontrollably as I hug her while she in turn hugs a precious photograph.

      The picture is of a sunny, smiling, apparently bubbly teenager, with long hair and a grey T-shirt. There is nothing in the picture to suggest that she was transgender, but that is the reason she took her life.

      When she was 12 her mother tried to have her put onto hormone blockers to delay puberty. She didn’t want to develop body hair, a deep voice or have wet dreams. She had already self-harmed when young, trying to slice her penis off with a pair of scissors. However, in what was clearly a borderline decision, the psychologists decided to that she should not be given these drugs. She should be given counselling instead. In despair her mother, a single parent, tried to take her to the United States, but the air fare and the £200 a month cost of these drugs was way beyond her means. Her father had no money either and both sets of grandparents didn’t want to know.

      Two years later the talking therapy failed. Juliaantje took a massive overdose and died, having self-harmed, abused alcohol and other substances for more than a year before that.

      “She was an intelligent and lively girl.” Her mother tells me through the tears and a large glass of Genever in a nearby café, probably the only thing that can deaden the pain of losing her only child. “She had a great future ahead of her, she could have done anything, been a doctor, a lawyer her teachers said…” Her voice breaks. Her happy nature had disappeared when male puberty really hit. “Her voice broke and she started to get facial hair and hair on her chest. She wore make up and turtle-neck jumpers to hide it all, but she simply couldn’t deal with the way her body was developing…”

      Did she blame the psychiatrists? No. Psychiatry is never going to be an exact science, there will always be people who don’t fit into their categories. She does however, feel that they could have given her the benefit of the doubt. “The effects of hormone blockers are easy to reverse, you just stop taking them…” There would have been no risk to her daughter if, at any time she decided that she did not want to be a girl she could simply have stopped, and male puberty would have started.

      Hormone Blockers are essentially a way for young trans people and children to leave their options open. They open an extended open window of choice, which gives them time to think about their future, a time during which young people can decide whether they wish to remain the sex they were assigned at birth, whether that be male or female, or whether they need gender reassignment surgery after the age of 18. Talking to mothers of transgender children in the UK who have been prescribed hormone blockers, usually at great cost (£200 a month plus the cost of a consultation in and flight to the United States) one thing comes across loudly and clearly; “I would rather have a live daughter than a dead son.” One of them told me. One mother had remortgaged her house to pay the cost of these drugs knowing what her child was like, she realised that this would probably be the only way to keep her alive.

      Another mother talked of how her young child had been prescribed a cocktail of a dozen drugs, including Ritalin, because of behaviour problems at home and at school. Yet when her child was recognised as transgender everything changed. As soon as she was treated as a girl, the tantrums, the bedwetting, the crying, the screaming, the hyperactivity, the violence, just stopped, as did the need for any of the drugs. “She became happy and contented almost overnight, just because we treated her like a girl! The psychologist who spotted this probably saved her life.”

      Predictably the accusation of “child abuse” has been levelled at those who advocate prescribing hormone blockers to children between the ages of 12 and 15 (they already are prescribed to those over the age of 16) in the UK. This flies in the face of the evidence in both the United States and Holland, where these drugs have been successfully, and harmlessly prescribed for many years. It also flies in the face of the experience of parents of transgender children, who have lived a day-to-day existence, hoping that their child is still alive and in one piece. Until her daughter was prescribed hormone blockers at age 16 one mother told me of the anguish she and her husband felt when their child had gone missing for a few days when she was 14. “We really thought we would never see her again. Every time the phone rang we thought it would be the police wanting us to identify a body.”

      Now that this technology has been developed, not making it available to all those children who need it is child abuse. Three years ago the trans community was shocked by the suicide of a transgender child who was only 10 years old. The allegation of “child abuse” has been levelled at parents who permit their transgender child to express the gender they prefer and who let them have hormone blockers. Yet this is effectively child abuse in reverse. Not to allow trans children to express their gender identities is actually child abuse. Those who throw accusations of child abuse around without knowing the facts are the ones who are child abusers by proxy; putting pressure on parents to force their children to conform to the gender they were assigned at birth no matter what the consequences"
      --

      Of course some people feel their ideological belief trumps others narratives.

9. Permalink

   

   n river

   journalist (logged in via email @yahoo.com)

   Andrew this blog will answer many of your questions. The latest article deals with an organisation run by an adult male who variously works making pornographic videos and as a spokesperson for transgendering. You may well wonder, as do I, what drives an adult male to such pursuits. One of the videos Mr. James stars in comes up quite soon, but you have a choice as to whether you watch or not. NSFW warning.

   http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/

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      Zoe Brain

      (Assistant Lecturer, Computer Science at Australian National University)

      I suggest going through the archives of that site. You'll find it most educational.

      I'll quote from one of the contributors, Bev Jo, regarding the violence against trans women:

      "They expect we’ll be shocked to see statistics about them being killed, and don’t realize, some of us wish they would ALL be dead."

      "I can just imagine their gloating if they can get female body parts and reproduce (not to mention how reproduction is destroying the earth and the likelihood of birth defects and bad health…

      show full comment

      I suggest going through the archives of that site. You'll find it most educational.

      I'll quote from one of the contributors, Bev Jo, regarding the violence against trans women:

      "They expect we’ll be shocked to see statistics about them being killed, and don’t realize, some of us wish they would ALL be dead."

      "I can just imagine their gloating if they can get female body parts and reproduce (not to mention how reproduction is destroying the earth and the likelihood of birth defects and bad health from babies coming from such a place.) There are no words to describe them. There are tiny parasitic wasps who paralyse small animals (spiders, caterpillars, etc.) and lay their eggs on them, so the animal is alive while being slowing eaten by the growing baby. But the wasps aren’t deliberately cruel. These men remind me of a deliberately female-hating version of that. They’ve prove what I’ve been saying for decades — they are more female-hating than even many het men. The character in Silence of the Lambs who skinned women to wear really seems more accurate all the time. "

      As far as I know, Andrea James has never been involved in pornography - that video is a risque satire (in questionable taste perhaps) of the song "like a G6"
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4s6H4ku6ZY

      A song that thoroughly deserves being parodied IMHO.

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      Zoe Brain

      (Assistant Lecturer, Computer Science at Australian National University)

      For an example of Andrea James' work, see
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNYtpW2bx

      By the way, the boyfriend of the actress, Calpernia Addams, was beaten to death for dating "one of those". The killers have since been released.

      1. Permalink

         

         Zoe Brain

         (Assistant Lecturer, Computer Science at Australian National University)

         http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNYtpW2bxs

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      Sarah Jane Rutherford

      Academic social sciences researcher (logged in via email @bigpond.com)

      I don't know the person your are referring to, but I do wonder how quick you are to judge someone's character merely by their profession? Your impressive ability to make comment which can only be labelled as without justification also in one sense implies a negative association to all transsexual people.
      I am beginning to wonder if this site is a fair forum for sensible and open debate, as opposed to mud slinging, judgement without evidence, and a somewhat cowardly attitude towards establishing fact and truth. Gutter type sensational journalistic commentary is non productive and abusive, and does nothing to improve people understandings and knowledge of transsexuals, transsexuality, or related matters and issues.
      Or have I made the mistake of thinking this was a for a forum for intelligent debate rather than a generalised and ignorant opinion session from the menial minds club?

      Sarah Rutherford BA.Hons
      Senior Coordinator and Counsellor
      SA Transsexual Support.

10. Permalink

    

    Sophie Ardiz

    Student (logged in via email @traumapony.org)

    Sheila, it is obvious that you don't know the first damn thing about transsexuality.

    >There is the expectation that they will be moved onto cross-sex hormones at 16 and receive surgery to amputate their genitals at 18.

    No, there's no expectation that they will "amputate their genitals". That's not what happens at all anyway, unless you count trans men getting masectomies. However, since they would have been on puberty blockers, they wouldn't develop them, so it's obvious you're referring to SRS…

    show full comment

    Sheila, it is obvious that you don't know the first damn thing about transsexuality.

    >There is the expectation that they will be moved onto cross-sex hormones at 16 and receive surgery to amputate their genitals at 18.

    No, there's no expectation that they will "amputate their genitals". That's not what happens at all anyway, unless you count trans men getting masectomies. However, since they would have been on puberty blockers, they wouldn't develop them, so it's obvious you're referring to SRS/GRS.

    >There are similarities between the eugenic sexual surgeries and drug treatments of the past and the transgendering of children now.

    Ok, transgendering isn't a word. Besides, treatment doesn't make them trans. They're already trans before treatment.

    >Though males seeking to be transgendered today

    Noone seeks to be trans, just like noone seeks to be gay, or black, or whatever. Noone seeks put themself through what we go through out of necessity.

    >They say the physical changes of puberty will make it harder later on to achieve a convincing likeness of the desired sex.

    Not to mention *just how traumatising* it is. It is pure torture.

    >Jamie was described in the court as “a very attractive young girl with long blonde hair” – that he conformed really well with cultural stereotypes of what a girl should look like.

    Yay, misgendering people is fun isn't it!

    >Decades after the sterilisation of the unfit was mostly abandoned, a similar practice is increasingly being carried out on children who are considered to be innately “transgender” because they are disobeying culturally acceptable gender roles.

    It has very little to do with gender roles at all.

    Sheila, you obviously know next to nothing about the subject.

    1. Permalink

       

       Sophie Ardiz

       Student (logged in via email @traumapony.org)

       > Jeffreys argues that transsexuals reproduce oppressive gender roles and mutilate their bodies through sex reassignment surgery...

       > Jeffreys has received attention for her views on transgender, transsexualism and gender reassignment. In interview, Bindel explains that Jeffreys argues that transsexual surgery "is an extension of the beauty industry offering cosmetic solutions to deeper rooted problems", that in a society without gender this would be unnecessary. She describes 'transgender' surgeries as 'mutilation'...

       Ah, no wonder this article reads like it was written in the Dail Mail or World. The author seems to hate transsexuals.

       1. Permalink

          

          Sophie Ardiz

          Student (logged in via email @traumapony.org)

          World News Daily*

11. Permalink

    

    Davina Squirrell

    Manager (logged in via email @gmail.com)

    I agree with Professor Jeffreys, as well as transgenderism in children being questionable medical ethics (and financially profitable for the medical industry). The concept of transgenderism in children is dubious - it is a self-reported condition (by the parents/children) - yet we do not take other self-reported desires of childhood with the same permanency - half of the children at that age want to be astronauts, cowboys or firemen, and we do not take these desires as absolute.

    The commenter Zoe…

    show full comment

    I agree with Professor Jeffreys, as well as transgenderism in children being questionable medical ethics (and financially profitable for the medical industry). The concept of transgenderism in children is dubious - it is a self-reported condition (by the parents/children) - yet we do not take other self-reported desires of childhood with the same permanency - half of the children at that age want to be astronauts, cowboys or firemen, and we do not take these desires as absolute.

    The commenter Zoe Brain, who astroturfs every transgender thread on the internet, is either mistaken or deliberately misleading. Brain continually conflates the issues of intersex individuals with transgender, and is now trying to add precocious puberty into the subject.

    Precocious puberty is only a temporary condition, and treated in order to delay puberty to be more inline with the child's peers, it is not a lifelong condition, nor is it anything to do with transgender or intersex.

    Intersex is also a relatively rare congenital condition, and many intersex children have somewhat ambiguous genitalia. In the past, 'corrective' surgery was performed on the child at a young age, with most having their genitals changed to female in appearance, and they were raised mainly as girls. A more recent trend has been to allow the child to reach puberty and decide for themselves if they want surgical/hormonal treatment.

    The case of "Sally" that Zoe Brain cites is actually an intersex case, and not a transgender case (link below). Obviously "Sally" had standard female genitalia rather than ambiguous, and only the onset of puberty revealed the condition.

    This is typical of transgender activists to deliberately hijack the issues of intersex to further the transgender agenda. Intersex individuals and organisations want nothing to do with the transgender movement or activists for these very same reasons. Zoe Brain is one who lived as male thoughout his life, fathered a child, and later in life decided he was transgender. He now claims to have various intersex conditions.

    As a society, we should not be enforcing rigid gender roles and stereotypes, which is what transgender does. We should allow individuals and children to just be what they are, and not to have to conform to stereotypes based on masculinity and femininity performance. Masculinity/femininity roles/performance differ from society to society, and are therefore culturally made up roles, and nothing to do with biological maleness or femaleness.

    http://home.vicnet.net.au/~aissg/2010_FamCA_237.pdf

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    Andrew Foers

    Student (logged in via email @msn.com)

    Puberty delaying drugs just seem like an easy way out to me. Sadly it seems Alex doesn't have any family who seem to care about her and to guide her in a wise direction (more can be read about Alex's case here: http://www.theage.com.au/national/young-people-big-decisions-20090503-arff.html), what I see is a child who lacks direction. Alex clearly has psychological issues, I would think that if this child had a loving and supportive network and was told about other people's stories who were once in similar situation to her then she could develop an appreciation of the benefits in waiting until he/she is older to make a big decision like that.
    This article really does open a can of worms.
    It brings to my mind questions such as:
    When should we give allow our children autonomy?
    Is it right to assume gender roles for our youth?
    When and how is sexuality determined, is it ever determined, is there any physiological aspect to it or is it entirely environment?

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       Zoe Brain

       (Assistant Lecturer, Computer Science at Australian National University)

       "When and how is sexuality determined, is it ever determined, is there any physiological aspect to it or is it entirely environment?"

       The question is more accurately "is there any environmental aspect, or is it entirely physiology?"

       Please see the David Reimer case.
       http://www.isna.org/faq/reimer

       Described in
       Sex Reassignment at Birth :Long-term Review and Clinical Implications
       Milton Diamond, PhD; H. Keith Sigmundson, MD
       Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151(3):298-304.

    2. Permalink

       

       Zoe Brain

       (Assistant Lecturer, Computer Science at Australian National University)

       +1 Insightful on your comment.

       In one way, puberty-delaying drugs *are* an "easy way out". They allow time for the patient to mature, to make absolutely certain for themselves what's right for them.

       This also gives people who are helping them extra time too, as the consequences of making the wrong decision, in either direction, are so grave.

       You'll see these issues exposed in some detail in the WPATH Standards of Care, version 6. That's available at:
       http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf

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    wilma western

    (logged in via email @bigpond.com)

    The article makes no attempt to understand the issues of ambiguous physical characteristics as well as the painful dilemmas faced by people with ambiguous or "wrong-feeling" gender, whether they're minors or adults , but prefers to caricature the experts and parents concerned as ideologues and the minors as being manipulated . Politics yes- fairness and understanding no. Many "transgender " people are accepted and happy in their roles - and acceptance and support of gays and their choices by heterosexuals is now very widespread in our communities - or hadn't Sheila Jeffreys noticed?

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       Sophie Ardiz

       Student (logged in via email @traumapony.org)

       It sounds like the people agreeing with this article get all their information from Adam Sandler movies.

14. Permalink

    

    Zoe Brain

    (logged in via Facebook)

    Perhaps this might help:

    First, let's look at puberty-delaying drugs. They're commonly prescribed for children as young as 7 - if they have precocious puberty, as was with the April 2011 case. It's only in the case where the child is Trans that cries are raised about "Eugenics!!"

    They give time for the child's body to develop a bit more before the onset of puberty, otherwise bone formation (amongst other things) can be compromised. Neuro-anatomy too, the hormonal wash from puberty causes permanent…

    show full comment

    Perhaps this might help:

    First, let's look at puberty-delaying drugs. They're commonly prescribed for children as young as 7 - if they have precocious puberty, as was with the April 2011 case. It's only in the case where the child is Trans that cries are raised about "Eugenics!!"

    They give time for the child's body to develop a bit more before the onset of puberty, otherwise bone formation (amongst other things) can be compromised. Neuro-anatomy too, the hormonal wash from puberty causes permanent changes to the brain, and again, it appears best to let it develop a bit more.

    Prof. Jefferies also unaccountably missed out mentioning another case : RE: SALLY (SPECIAL MEDICAL PROCEDURE) [2010] FamCA 237

    This was a case where the Family Court ruled that a child could be sterilised, her gonads removed, at age 14. At her own request. You see, the law doesn't allow "Eugenics" in Australia. Before a procedure can be performed that removes fertility of a patient, they must be what's called "Gillick Competent" - or have the Family Court review and make the decision.

    In Sally's case, she was having a natural sex change from female to male. A real nightmare for any girl. Such things happen, usually due to 5-alpha-reductase-3 deficiency (5ARD) or 17-beta-hydroxysteroid-dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17BHDD), but there are other syndromes that can cause such changes too.

    I hear no cries of "Eugenics!!" from Prof Jefferies there.

    Please, please, before uttering any opinion - make yourself aware of the factual, biological, and medical issues to do with Transsexuality and Intersex conditions. Look at the death rates of children who are given "alternate" treatment, or no treatment at all.

    Most children showing behaviour suggesting cross-sexed neurology before age 10 don't have it. Most of what we call "gendered behaviour" is just that, Gendered, a social construct. Only a minority is based on biology. But once they reach 10 or 12 though, persistent symptoms are pretty conclusive.

    See
    The Treatment of Adolescent Transsexuals: Changing Insights
    Peggy T. Cohen-Kettenis, Henriette A. Delemarre-van de Waal, Louis J. G. Gooren
    The Journal of Sexual Medicine Volume 5, Issue 8, pages 1892–1897, August 2008

    "Some assume that it is not possible to make a definitive diagnosis of GID in adolescence, because in this developmental phase gender identity is still fluctuating; others fear that preventing secondary sex characteristics to develop will inhibit a “spontaneous formation of a consistent gender identity, which sometimes develops through the ‘crisis of gender’” (see also [30]). These points raise the question of what is actually known about the persistence of GID in juveniles.
    If childhood GID does not persist over time it would be less than desirable to provide early somatic treatment. As mentioned earlier, symptoms of GID at prepubertal ages decrease or even disappear in a considerable percentage of children (estimates range from 80–95%) [11,13]. Therefore, any intervention in childhood would seem premature and inappropriate. However, GID persisting into early puberty appears to be highly persistent [31]: at the Amsterdam gender identity clinic for adolescents, none of the patients who were diagnosed with a GID and considered eligible for SR dropped out of the diagnostic or treatment procedures or regretted SR [16–18]. Even some of those who were not eligible to start treatment before the age of 18 years because of serious psychiatric comorbidity, extremely adverse living circumstances, or a combination of both, persisted in their wish for SR. Because their other problems had to be addressed before they were regarded eligible to start SR successfully, their treatment was usually delayed until after 18 years of age."

    30 Giordano S. Gender atypical organisation in children and adolescents: Ethico-legal issues and a proposal for new guidelines. The International Journal of Children’s Rights 2007;15:365–90.
    11 Cohen-Kettenis PT. Gender identity disorder in the DSM? J Am Acad Child Psy 2001;40:391.
    13 Zucker KJ, Bradley SJ. Gender identity disorder and psychosexual problems in children and adolescents. New York/London: Guilford Press; 1995:283–301.
    31 Wren B. Early physical intervention for young people with atypical gender identity development. Clin Child Psychol Psychiaty 2000;5:220–3.
    16 Cohen-Kettenis PT, van Goozen SH. Sex reassignment of adolescent transsexuals: A follow-up study. J Am Acad Child Adolesc 1997;36:263–71.
    17 Smith YL, van Goozen SH, Cohen-Kettenis PT. Adolescents with gender identity disorder who were accepted or rejected for sex reassignment surgery: A prospective follow-up study. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry 2001;40:472–81.
    18 Smith YL, van Goozen SH, Kuiper AJ, Cohen-Kettenis PT. Sex reassignment: Outcomes and predictors of treatment for adolescent and adult transsexuals. Psychol Med 2005;35:89–99.
15. Permalink

    

    Zoe Brain

    (logged in via Facebook)

    So, to what extent is Prof Jefferies correct?

    In places such as Sweden, and until recently, Germany and very recently, Australia, it was mandatory that Transsexual people be sterilised. This was scene as a "consummation devoutly to be wished", not a bug or side-effect, but a desirable feature. The rationale in Sweden was Eugenics, to genetically cleanse society of Undesirable Elements; in Australia, that "we can't have a man capable of getting pregnant".

    The problem is that while "male brain in…

    show full comment

    So, to what extent is Prof Jefferies correct?

    In places such as Sweden, and until recently, Germany and very recently, Australia, it was mandatory that Transsexual people be sterilised. This was scene as a "consummation devoutly to be wished", not a bug or side-effect, but a desirable feature. The rationale in Sweden was Eugenics, to genetically cleanse society of Undesirable Elements; in Australia, that "we can't have a man capable of getting pregnant".

    The problem is that while "male brain in female body" - or the reverse - captures the essence, in detail it's just not accurate. There's no such thing as a "male brain", only a brain with some specific structures masculinised. Others may be, and usually are, but "masculinised" doesn't mean "inherently male". It just means that most people who we socially construct as men have that pattern, and most who we socially construct as women have a different one - but there's overlap.

    Neuro-anatomy is causal in human behaviour, but while some parts of the brain are aplastic, most others are changeable. Moreover, the majority of human neuro-anatomy is not sexually dimorphic. Men and Women are more similar than different. Those who claim there is no difference between the sexes are more correct than those who say that all gendered behaviour is biologically based; we have proof that it is not. But "more correct" does not mean "correct".

    Examples:

    Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

    Sense of smell is sexually dimorphic - and most transsexual people have cross-sexed neuro-anatomy in this area.

    Dichotic Listening, Handedness, Brain Organization and Transsexuality Govier et al International Journal of Transgenderism, 12:144–154, 2010

    "It was hypothesized that the MtF participants’ dichotic performance would be significantly different from the control males and resemble the control female pattern. This hypothesis was supported. It was also hypothesized that the FtM dichotic pattern would be significantly different from the control females and would resemble the control male pattern. This hypothesis was not supported. Finally, it was hypothesized that there would be significantly more nonexclusive right-handers in both trans-groups. This hypothesis was supported. Taken together, the dichotic and handedness data reported here indicate that the MtF and FtM conditions are not mirror images in terms of the verbal-auditory aspects of their brain organization and neurobiology plays an important role, particularly in the development of the male-to-female trans-condition."

    Sense of hearing is sexually dimorphic - however, while most MtoF Transsexuals have cross-sexed anatomy in this area, most FtoM people do not. Both have a higher degree of left-handedness, and a much higher degree of ambidexterity, showing that cross-sexing is associated with other atypicalities in brain development too.

    “Prenatal hormones versus postnatal socialization by parents as determinants of male-typical toy play in girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia” Pasterski VL, Geffner ME, Brain C, Hindmarsh P, Brook C, Hines M Child Dev 76(1):264-78 2005

    This shows that in cases of CAH in XX people, most (90%) identify as female - but all show distinctly masculinised play patterns when young, despite social conditioning to the contrary. In extreme cases, the body looks almost normally male, in other cases, the genitalia looks only slightly anomalous for females, yet the same proportion (90%) identify as female regardless of genital configuration.

    It's fuzzy, and messy, and apart from extreme cases, there's no clear boundaries. Biology is like that. However, Transsexuals are at the extremes, if they weren't they wouldn't be Transsexual.

    Finally (sorry)... the SPL - superior parietal lobe - is associated with the "body map", the instincts that tell us how many arms and legs we should have, etc. This too is sexually dimorphic. A strongly feminised SPL leads to immense discomfort if the body does not have female primary and secondary sex characteristics, and conversely for the masculinised case.

    Not everyone who has a masculinised lymbic nucleus (and thus a male gender identity crystallises - see Biased-Interaction Theory of Psychosexual Development: “How Does One Know if One is Male or Female?” M.Diamond Sex Roles (2006) 55:589–600) has a strongly masculinised SPL. Hence we have conventionally socially-constructed men who desire female genitalia, but still identify as men. They're outnumbered though by Transsexuals, where the Lymbic Nucleus is cross-sexed. This group identifies as the sex opposite to their socially-constructed one, their "assigned sex at birth". When the SPL is cross-sexed too, as is often the case, they require surgery and hormonal body modification. When it isn't, they don't, and to require them to have such - for whatever reason, Eugenics, Social Good, Religion, Ideology - is immoral.

    1. Permalink

       

       Nick Chaleunphone

       (logged in via Facebook)

       Very Typical of Zoe Alan Brain, by pretending to be Intersex and cutting & Pasting Facts. Zoe, Quit pretending to be an expert and quit pretending to be Intersex because your neither an expert or an intersex person. Your just a middle age transsexual with an identity crisis.

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    Sarah Jane Rutherford

    Academic social sciences researcher (logged in via email @bigpond.com)

    Dear Editor,

    This article takes insufficient account of legislation and practice across Australia, and demonstrates a lack of research, knowledge and understanding of the sector. Let me enlighten readers with actual evidence and the proper application of the facts. I am appalled at the application of a perceived expert authority attempting to disenfranchise the transsexual community from treatments and appealing to public emotional prejudice.
    Gender dysphoria is a well recognised world wide medical…

    show full comment

    Dear Editor,

    This article takes insufficient account of legislation and practice across Australia, and demonstrates a lack of research, knowledge and understanding of the sector. Let me enlighten readers with actual evidence and the proper application of the facts. I am appalled at the application of a perceived expert authority attempting to disenfranchise the transsexual community from treatments and appealing to public emotional prejudice.
    Gender dysphoria is a well recognised world wide medical condition, not a behavioural problem, not a disease, and certainly not a mental illness. True there are psychological factors to consider but the majority of these stem not from the gender dysphoria but the discriminatory pressure and affects from ignorance and intolerance of society and individuals, its institutions, dogma and other factors.
    Transgender is a term employed as an umbrella term to cover a variety of people, not just transsexuals, and was coined by a cross dressing American who wanted a term he/she could feel comfortable with. In reality you cannot transition across gender as the gender of a person is in the brain, whereas the sex of a person resides most assuredly between the legs. One cannot have surgery to change the gender, only the sexual organs.
    Under current legislation in this country, and I stress the original legislation model that guided all other states regarding transsexual treatment, that is the SA Sexual Reassignment Act of 1988 and associated regulations of 2000, no person male or female can begin full hormone treatment until they attain the age of 18 years old. They most certainly cannot have sexual reassignment until they attain 21 years old. Children who are currently undergoing treatment to prevent the onset of puberty can only do so with court approval, and that process is most rigorous and firmly controlled.
    I find the link to eugenics insulting. Such a concept borders upon a hysterical and grossly ill informed opposition to transsexual children and transsexual adults more keenly associated with fundamentalist ideals and dogmatic interference in the autonomy of individuals. Such an irrational assertion is inconsistent with decades of scientific thought, medical discoveries and the work of genuine people dedicated to discovering the cause of gender dysphoria.
    The system and process of treatment in this country is most rigorous and time consuming. One does not change sex overnight, nor can anyone short cut the checks and balances firmly in place with treating professionals. People do not change their sex because of some frivolous sexual notion, no more than children have any choice in what they naturally perceive as their true innate gender identity. Children on treatment to prevent the onset puberty are on a regime that is reversible if after eighteen they determine for themselves that they are not transsexual or do not desire to go on to surgical remediation.
    The references to morons, prostitutes, criminals etcetera, and the absurd assertion that the treatment of transsexuals is merely a product of the professions treating them, is as farcical as the eugenics connection. “The practice of transgendering children” sounds more like an industrial description or a Hollywood script rather than the rational and acceptable treatment of children and adults suffering and enduring the distress of being incorrectly placed on the wrong side of the socially preferred gender dichotomy at birth.
    It is worth noting that only about ten to fifteen percent of people diagnosed with gender dysphoria, whether children or adults, actually do have sexual reassignment surgery. The majority do not, either by choice or circumstance.
    Some time spent actually talking and working with the transsexual community across all levels, as have I for the last ten years, would result in a quite different tone and approach to this article.
    Sarah J Rutherford B.A Hons.
    Senior Coordinator and Counsellor, South Australian Transsexual Support, Adelaide
    15/11/2011

17. Permalink

    

    Kim Pearson

    (logged in via Facebook)

    As the parent of a transgender child I feel compelled to state that most of you have no idea what you are talking about. Transgender children and adults are very misunderstood and this article serves only to create more misunderstanding. It seems that true empathy and compassion aren't even part of the conversation. All I can say is that if you think parents and children are choosing this type of treatment because they can't or won't stand up to the pressures of societal "norms" YOU KNOW NOTHING. Walk a mile in our shoes. Your line of thinking ends lives. That is the bottom line. So call it mutilation or whatever you want, but at the end of the day there is a live, breathing human being who has survived and will continue to survive. Better still they will be happy contributing members of society.

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    Lilly

    (logged in via Twitter)

    Good lord! Wat is wrong with you people?? Blockers delay puberty. Do any of you know what is linked to late puberty? Schizoprenia! That's right. So is this illness also one of the long term effects of the treatment? Nobody knows because there are NO studies.
    You guys clearly don't care about the children otherwise you wouldn't cheering like crazy to such tragic cases of child abuse.

    As to quote Dr. Spack

    "We can do wonders if we can get them early.”

    Mengele would be proud.

    1. Permalink

       

       Zoe Brain

       (Assistant Lecturer, Computer Science at Australian National University)

       It is possible that schizophrenia may cause late puberty. There is no evidence that treatment by GNRH agonists has any correlation with schizophrenia though, those studies were all on children whose late puberty was natural.

       Of course such therapies have only been in use for 30 years; so while we can be sure there's no correlation with the juvenile schizophrenia associated with naturally late puberty, we cannot rule out other forms, which may happen in the 60's or even 90's.

       The other side…

       show full comment

       It is possible that schizophrenia may cause late puberty. There is no evidence that treatment by GNRH agonists has any correlation with schizophrenia though, those studies were all on children whose late puberty was natural.

       Of course such therapies have only been in use for 30 years; so while we can be sure there's no correlation with the juvenile schizophrenia associated with naturally late puberty, we cannot rule out other forms, which may happen in the 60's or even 90's.

       The other side of the coin: from the Mermaids website, UK.

       The picture is of a sunny, smiling, apparently bubbly teenager, with long hair and a grey T-shirt. There is nothing in the picture to suggest that she was transgender, but that is the reason she took her life.

       When she was 12 her mother tried to have her put onto hormone blockers to delay puberty. She didn’t want to develop body hair, a deep voice or have wet dreams. She had already self-harmed when young, trying to slice her penis off with a pair of scissors. However, in what was clearly a borderline decision, the psychologists decided to that she should not be given these drugs. She should be given counselling instead. In despair her mother, a single parent, tried to take her to the United States, but the air fare and the £200 a month cost of these drugs was way beyond her means. Her father had no money either and both sets of grandparents didn’t want to know.

       Two years later the talking therapy failed. Juliaantje took a massive overdose and died, having self-harmed, abused alcohol and other substances for more than a year before that.

       “She was an intelligent and lively girl.” Her mother tells me through the tears and a large glass of Genever in a nearby café, probably the only thing that can deaden the pain of losing her only child. “She had a great future ahead of her, she could have done anything, been a doctor, a lawyer her teachers said…” Her voice breaks. Her happy nature had disappeared when male puberty really hit. “Her voice broke and she started to get facial hair and hair on her chest. She wore make up and turtle-neck jumpers to hide it all, but she simply couldn’t deal with the way her body was developing…”

       Did she blame the psychiatrists? No. Psychiatry is never going to be an exact science, there will always be people who don’t fit into their categories. She does however, feel that they could have given her the benefit of the doubt. “The effects of hormone blockers are easy to reverse, you just stop taking them…” There would have been no risk to her daughter if, at any time she decided that she did not want to be a girl she could simply have stopped, and male puberty would have started.

       Hormone Blockers are essentially a way for young trans people and children to leave their options open. They open an extended open window of choice, which gives them time to think about their future, a time during which young people can decide whether they wish to remain the sex they were assigned at birth, whether that be male or female, or whether they need gender reassignment surgery after the age of 18. Talking to mothers of transgender children in the UK who have been prescribed hormone blockers, usually at great cost (£200 a month plus the cost of a consultation in and flight to the United States) one thing comes across loudly and clearly; “I would rather have a live daughter than a dead son.” One of them told me. One mother had remortgaged her house to pay the cost of these drugs knowing what her child was like, she realised that this would probably be the only way to keep her alive.

       Another mother talked of how her young child had been prescribed a cocktail of a dozen drugs, including Ritalin, because of behaviour problems at home and at school. Yet when her child was recognised as transgender everything changed. As soon as she was treated as a girl, the tantrums, the bedwetting, the crying, the screaming, the hyperactivity, the violence, just stopped, as did the need for any of the drugs. “She became happy and contented almost overnight, just because we treated her like a girl! The psychologist who spotted this probably saved her life.”

       Predictably the accusation of “child abuse” has been levelled at those who advocate prescribing hormone blockers to children between the ages of 12 and 15 (they already are prescribed to those over the age of 16) in the UK. This flies in the face of the evidence in both the United States and Holland, where these drugs have been successfully, and harmlessly prescribed for many years. It also flies in the face of the experience of parents of transgender children, who have lived a day-to-day existence, hoping that their child is still alive and in one piece. Until her daughter was prescribed hormone blockers at age 16 one mother told me of the anguish she and her husband felt when their child had gone missing for a few days when she was 14. “We really thought we would never see her again. Every time the phone rang we thought it would be the police wanting us to identify a body.”

       Now that this technology has been developed, not making it available to all those children who need it is child abuse. Three years ago the trans community was shocked by the suicide of a transgender child who was only 10 years old. The allegation of “child abuse” has been levelled at parents who permit their transgender child to express the gender they prefer and who let them have hormone blockers. Yet this is effectively child abuse in reverse. Not to allow trans children to express their gender identities is actually child abuse. Those who throw accusations of child abuse around without knowing the facts are the ones who are child abusers by proxy; putting pressure on parents to force their children to conform to the gender they were assigned at birth no matter what the consequences
       .
       Hormone blockers save lives and extend trans children’s options.

       1. Permalink

          

          Lilly

          (logged in via Twitter)

          Hey dude I've read so many shit on the internet about you. You are one of the homophobe utterly conservative people who propagate this child abuse. They used to sterilize the unfit and they do it until this day. But now the T activists are cheering to it. And you seem to be totally fine that the children may face or will face horrible long term consequences?? That's crazy!

19. Permalink

    

    Zoe Brain

    (Assistant Lecturer, Computer Science at Australian National University)

    If anyone's interested in the facts, rather than unevidenced political belief, may I recommend:

    The treatment of adolescent transsexuals: changing insights.
    Cohen-Kettenis PT, Delemarre-van de Waal HA, Gooren LJ.
    J Sex Med. 2008 Aug;5(8):1892-7.

    Abstract:

    INTRODUCTION:
    Treatment of individuals with gender identity disorder (GID) has in medicine nearly always met with a great deal of skepticism. Professionals largely follow the Standards of Care of the World Professional Association for Transgender…

    show full comment

    If anyone's interested in the facts, rather than unevidenced political belief, may I recommend:

    The treatment of adolescent transsexuals: changing insights.
    Cohen-Kettenis PT, Delemarre-van de Waal HA, Gooren LJ.
    J Sex Med. 2008 Aug;5(8):1892-7.

    Abstract:

    INTRODUCTION:
    Treatment of individuals with gender identity disorder (GID) has in medicine nearly always met with a great deal of skepticism. Professionals largely follow the Standards of Care of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. For adolescents, specific guidelines have also been issued by the British Royal College of Psychiatrists.

    AIM:
    To describe the stepwise changes in treatment policy which, in recent years, have been made by the team of the Gender Identity Clinic at the VU University Medical Center in Amsterdam, The Netherlands.

    METHODS:
    The first step taken to treat adolescents was that, after careful evaluation, (cross-sex hormone) treatment could start between the ages of 16 and 18 years. A further step was the suppression of puberty by means of gonadotropin-releasing hormone analogs in 12-16 year olds; the latter serves also as a diagnostic tool. Very recently, other clinics in Europe and North America have followed this policy. Results. The first results from the Amsterdam clinic show that this policy is promising.

    CONCLUSIONS:
    Professionals who take responsibility for these youth and are willing to help should yet be fully aware of the impact of their interventions. In this article, the pros and cons of the various approaches to youngsters with GID are presented, hopefully inciting a sound scientific discussion of the issue.

    Full paper available at
    http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/News/Europe/Cohen-Kettenis%20JSM2008.pdf

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    Zoe Brain

    (logged in via Facebook)

    @Cathy Brennan:

    Re Ron Gold - Persecuted? I think not.

    "Persecution" involves things such as making submissions to the UN arguing that a minority should have existing human rights withdrawn. Ron Gold has been the victim of that from submissions by the Vatican and others - but not by Bilerico. As have Trans people.

    Here's the 8-part extended dialogue with him that resulted from that incident. To say he was "silenced" or "persecuted" is factually incorrect, provably so.

    http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/12/ron-gold-on-transgendered-dialogue.html

    I disagreed with the Bilerico censorship - just because someone is deliberately rude and insulting, demeaning, doesn't mean their views should not be aired, exposed, and debated.

    If someone calls Feminists "insane", or Lesbians "perverts", or Trans people "deluded", in my opinion they should be debated, not silenced in the name of "creating a safe space". Other people can reasonably disagree on that.

21. Permalink

    

    The PropheticKleenex

    (logged in via Twitter)

    I want to check if I am blocked again for holding a reverance for God over the authority of science, before I waste my time commenting

    1. Permalink

       

       The PropheticKleenex

       (logged in via Twitter)

       This issue is scary to me because I see such perversion as spiritual possession. As far as I am aware science has not considered the role the spirit world plays in people's sexual orientations/ drives.

       If this is the case , then having the state adminster drugs, surgery cannot help these troubled souls and can only lead to severe trauma later in life as they are trapped into a perception of reality they had as teenagers.

       When are we going to ask ourselves if the bodies in control of science are benevolent, before we decide to blindly trust everything they claim as truth.

       What if your child was so troubled and used the courts and their submission to scientific authority to circumvent your authority and get these monstrous drugs/ surgeries?

       1. Permalink

          

          Zoe Brain

          (Assistant Lecturer, Computer Science at Australian National University)

          "As far as I am aware science has not considered the role the spirit world plays in people's sexual orientations/ drives."

          Actually, yes it has -

          1) Baldwin, W.J. (1992) Spirit Releasement Therapy - A Technique Manual ISBN 1-88-265800-0

          2) Barlow, D., Abel, G., Blanchard, E. (1977). Gender identity change in a transsexual: an exorcism. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 6, 387-395.

          3) Fiore, E. (1987) The Unquiet Dead ISBN 0-345-35083-9

          Detailing 1) Getting rid of extra-terrestrial possession 2) Casting out Demons 3) Getting rid of Ghosts

          None of those appear to be effective in the long term, though no less effective than "talking cures".

          See "Rogue Theories of Transsexualism: By seeing a collection of such theories side-by-side, we grasp the strangeness of them all." Prof. Lynn Conway 2006
          http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Rogue%20Theories/Rogue%20Theories.html